tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post2499065835530031019..comments2024-03-24T01:57:23.238+08:00Comments on 漁人碼頭的戰爭 - The Battle of Fisherman's Wharf: The taking of Ft ZeelandiaUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-36799739728549743072011-08-13T01:00:01.988+08:002011-08-13T01:00:01.988+08:00"But I do go overboard sometimes. And calling..."But I do go overboard sometimes. And calling out names like Westerners and expats are not helping. I shall try to do better. Thanks for reminding me."<br /><br />I am a little sensitive sometimes, and I suppose nobody will argue with me when I say that I also go overboard. Cheers. The Internet is pretty cool because it draws people like you and me together, or eyedoc and me together for that matter (we've been out several times for dinner and he helped me a lot on my MA).<br /><br />I have definitely enjoyed reading your feedback here for various reasons. I guess I just appreciate seeing more individuals engaged on the subject of Taiwan, etc. The Internet and engaging blogs bring this about. I look forward to much more (but will have to, sorry, call you on what I don't agree with.) Good luck in your quest.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-15092897268933605912011-08-09T08:49:18.610+08:002011-08-09T08:49:18.610+08:00Patrick,
I haven't lived in Taiwan for a long...Patrick,<br /><br />I haven't lived in Taiwan for a long time. I think that other than physical appearance, you are probably much more Taiwanese than I am. And know things Taiwanese much more than I do.<br /><br />The "us versus them" is a way of my discrimination. And I think discrimination is a trained faculty of the mind. Of course it can be bad if discriminating wrongly, like I pre-judged that Taiwanese ancestors did something bad to the aborigines without really knowing anything about it. But discrimination can also be good in separating the wheat from the chaff. Without discrimination, how do you separate facts from fancies then?<br /><br />But I do go overboard sometimes. And calling out names like Westerners and expats are not helping. I shall try to do better. Thanks for reminding me.Hermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-17256359272776802072011-08-09T02:09:17.214+08:002011-08-09T02:09:17.214+08:00"And the reason why the expats are at the for..."And the reason why the expats are at the forefront digging? Very simple: a sense of urgency in practicing 既是台灣人應知台灣史. Beyond this, some who set down roots in Taiwan are actually more Taiwanese than the average Taiwanese in trying to make Taiwan better. This I appreciate very much and, I am sure, Chosan as well."<br /><br />Me too. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think first hand accounts are vital, as they throw aside the regurgitating of texts from Campbell, Rutter, Shepherd and what have you. This has actually been my approach.<br /><br />But to play the devil's advocate once again, I like how some individuals have tried to touch upon these writers (Campbell, Rutter, Shepherd, etc.), especially when they want to souse out certain points and make them relevant. <br /><br />Herman, OK. I just think we should draw more brains into the discussion. It doesn't matter if they are expats or locals. And we should be careful here. I think you are making too much of how "Westerners" are drawing up Taiwan's history. The simple fact that you have chosen to make a distinction smacks a bit of "us versus them-ism." There is a lot that needs to be contributed to the conversation, regardless of where it comes from or in what language it is expressed in. Enjoy the point of view for what it is, regardless of the racial or ethnic composition of point-of-view maker. Welcome to the conversation. Seems like you have an original way of coming at it. We'll probably talk again.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-1507953435487507872011-08-09T00:50:01.821+08:002011-08-09T00:50:01.821+08:00EyeDoc,
It was the 愚民政策...
Hey I like that. Make...EyeDoc,<br /><br />It was the 愚民政策...<br /><br />Hey I like that. Makes me feel like holding my head a bit higher. Yes, I will try to look at it that way from now on. I was a Northerner. I grew up in Keelung and saw betel-nut chewers there too. And we've got one night market called 基隆廟口.<br /><br />Patrick -<br /><br />Westerners generally write about Taiwanese history more openly than Chinese authors. I know the old KMT did an awfully effective job covering up parts of Taiwanese history. As a matter of fact, the first time I read about 228 was from a travel guide book: Lonely Planet - Taiwan.<br /><br />But even the historical accounts made by expats, there's always the question of authenticity and interpretation. Are we looking at first-hand accounts, or second-hand editorials and commentaries? Are the dots connected the right way? You know how when there's a family feud, the two sides always give radically different accounts, like the movie Rashomen 羅生門? I don't mean that nobody knows what happened. I meant to say that there seems to be very few scholarly maps showing where the dots were when it comes to Taiwan history, and even less agreement on the ways to connect the dots.<br /><br />Drew Kerslake of Taiwan in Cycles had written a timeline of events of Taiwan history.<br />http://taiwanincycles.blogspot.com/p/key-dates-in-taiwan-history.html<br />That's very good writing in presenting the dots. <br /><br />There are other bloggers who just use partial facts indiscriminately to fit their thesis. Let me give you an example. Michael T. wrote a post about how awful the English versions of Campaign slogans were: "Taiwan Next", "Taiwan Cheers, Great". After a lot of expats pitched in to say how awful they were, somebody bothered to look in on the original Chinese version, and then Michael concluded that the English version was mis-translated, and it "contains a play in words that can't be translated".<br /><br />That's an example of poorly presenting the dots and drew a picture from them. I don't mean they shouldn't do it. They can certainly do it for fun and no problems. It's just that when they do it so seriously and then got it wrong, maybe they should let the dots speak for themselves more when tackling the business of sketching/analyzing history.Hermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-54821787853992241512011-08-07T19:23:03.135+08:002011-08-07T19:23:03.135+08:00Hi Patrick,
There must be "a lot of books wr...Hi Patrick,<br /><br />There must be "a lot of books written in various European languages..." Perhaps, but the ones that pontificate or editorialize from a safe distance we don't need. Fundamentally, history is a collective experience of the common people, native-born and immigrants included. And the reason why the expats are at the forefront digging? Very simple: a sense of urgency in practicing 既是台灣人應知台灣史. Beyond this, some who set down roots in Taiwan are actually more Taiwanese than the average Taiwanese in trying to make Taiwan better. This I appreciate very much and, I am sure, Chosan as well.EyeDochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00406602265159523372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-3236895812933722102011-08-06T01:43:47.633+08:002011-08-06T01:43:47.633+08:00"The history of Taiwan has been hotly contest..."The history of Taiwan has been hotly contested in many expats' blogs and comments." <br /><br />Does this really give you pause, Herman? What I draw from your point, and find quite the riddle, is that "expats" are regularly at the forefront of digging out Taiwan's history. In my experience, "expats" are amongst some of the most knowledgeable voices on what went down in Taiwan 200, 300 and 400 years ago. Why do you think that it is that a lot of people in the know about Taiwan's history don't even come from Taiwan originally? Eyedoc and Chosan on this blog do, of course, provide a bit of a counter....Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-71356313109095396462011-08-06T01:25:37.276+08:002011-08-06T01:25:37.276+08:00"He was a British Naval attaché, so I am not ..."He was a British Naval attaché, so I am not sure how good his training in land warfare was." <br /><br />Point taken. Rutter does, however, on watching Japanese soldiers going through their routines mention how much he misses viewing good soldiering.<br /><br />Like I said, I think there has got to be a lot out there on Taiwan, sitting in the books written in various European languages, just waiting to be collected. Michael Turton has been throwing up the odd journalistic account of Taiwan (19th century) on his blog.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-62184957560795944292011-08-05T23:21:09.848+08:002011-08-05T23:21:09.848+08:00That is very true. A systematic cataloging is sore...That is very true. A systematic cataloging is sorely needed. <br /><br />And if you google "Koxinga", 317K entries show up. Google "鄭成功" = 5.43 million entries. Of course, only a handful are primary historical sources that are truly useful. Still, the gulf between east and west understanding is an immense one.<br /><br />Your point on Rutter's background has not escaped my attention. He was a British Naval attaché, so I am not sure how good his training in land warfare was. Certainly he would be far more knowledgeable than Rev Campbell in military tactics.EyeDochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00406602265159523372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-8076968843769485222011-08-05T22:20:54.937+08:002011-08-05T22:20:54.937+08:00"In fact, many authors have "borrowed&qu..."In fact, many authors have "borrowed" liberally from Campbell's book including, e.g., Davidson (1903), Rutter (1923),..."<br /><br />I've read these books; but they don't even scratch the surface. They're just what are commonly available in Taiwan. Formosa is probably mentioned thousands of times, in pretty much all the European languages, in many places, going right back to 1544. It's just that nobody has made an effort to compile these mentions somewhere. <br /><br />I like Rutter not because of how he rehashes Campbell. I already know this account well. What intrigues me about Rutter is his read on Campbell, being an ex-officer and someone with a deep understanding of military tactics.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-56720430762229893642011-08-05T20:56:06.754+08:002011-08-05T20:56:06.754+08:00Hi Herman,
The "history of night markets or ...Hi Herman,<br /><br />The "history of night markets or betel nuts"? Hmm... So you have spent some time in southern Taiwan even though you write like an NTU graduate. Just kidding.<br /><br />I'd disagree with your "shamefully ignorant" assertion. It was the 愚民政策 - still more or less in place now, for political exploitations, I might add.<br /><br />If you wish, I can send you a "Tamsui Peace Park - the Historical Background" which is based on materials from this blog and other subjects that you have expressed interest in. It is a small window to the past of Taiwan. Please contact me at hmcheng542@msn.com <br /><br />And Marc,<br /><br />Good to hear from you. We must meet up again. Thanks for the beer last time.EyeDochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00406602265159523372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-91336491319206245882011-08-05T15:20:14.541+08:002011-08-05T15:20:14.541+08:00Hi EyeDoc,
既是台灣人應知台灣史.
Indeed, I'm shamefull...Hi EyeDoc,<br /><br />既是台灣人應知台灣史.<br /><br />Indeed, I'm shamefully ignorant in much of this history. It's as if there were a dark cloud hanging over the past that I couldn't find much sensibility in the Chinese books or from people's talk. Most of what I read and believe actually come from books written in English.<br /><br />Yes the 228 is of high interest to me. But come to think of it. Any time period in the past 100 years that you wish to address is quite fine for me. I'm sure each and every time period and event all play an interesting and integral part of what's happening here and now. So even if you want to talk about the history of night markets or betel nuts, that too will be relished by me and your other readers. But of course political incidents are always good topics.<br /><br />So, till you feel like it, I look forward to your posts.Hermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-34241875329609948472011-08-05T13:29:42.712+08:002011-08-05T13:29:42.712+08:00Nice work EyeDoc, I always appreciate everything y...Nice work EyeDoc, I always appreciate everything you post!<br /><br />~MarcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-34337688420429202792011-08-05T06:13:33.852+08:002011-08-05T06:13:33.852+08:00Dear Herman,
Thank you very much for the kind wor...Dear Herman,<br /><br />Thank you very much for the kind words. Very nice of you.<br /><br />The Chinese are taught, as a matter of respect, not to address their elders by name but by their title. It is the same principle as far as Koxinga. This English name was derived from Cocxinja (Dutch), the Taiwanese pronunciation of 國姓爺. And in Chinese history, there has been only one 國姓爺, so no confusion here.<br /><br />You mention the history of Taiwan is "hotly contested in many expats' blogs and comments". If post-1945, then it is usually the 228 Incident. And indeed, George Kerr's "Formosa Betrayed" is often cited by most as the only credible source. Unfortunately, research on this subject has been suppressed until more recently, so there is still a knowledge gap. <br /><br />Actually, many older 外省人 still regard this part of the history as none of their business since most of them arrived in Taiwan around 1949. The generation that grew up in Taiwan, as you did, are all Taiwanese as far as I am concerned. 既是台灣人應知台灣史. I'll try to post more, then.EyeDochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00406602265159523372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811556140606524073.post-15153940076563439092011-08-05T02:07:43.464+08:002011-08-05T02:07:43.464+08:00I admire your scholarly research and writings on t...I admire your scholarly research and writings on the history of Taiwan. Reading your posts has been a highly rewarding experience.<br /><br />For some times I was wondering why 鄭成功 was spelled Koxinga in English. I thought maybe he was a Chinese with some foreign blood, and that name came from the foreign branch of his family tree.<br /><br />Then I realized that Koxinga was 國姓爺. It's a title rather than a name. It's like calling him Imperial Lordship rather than his real name. Somehow it gives the impression that he was not Chinese because Koxinga is so un-Chinese-like. Now I see my misunderstanding came from the evolution and translation of languages.<br /><br />If you are so inclined, I'd like to read some history of Taiwan of more recent years by you. Specifically the history from 1895 onward, preferably post-1945.<br /><br />The history of Taiwan has been hotly contested in many expats' blogs and comments. I hope that you may shed some light on this subject. I'm a 外省人 grew up in Taiwan but had lived in the U.S. longer than in Taiwan. I don't mean to stir up controversy. I just like to read some even-handed facts and a enlightened perspective such as yours.<br /><br />Thanks.Hermannoreply@blogger.com